So, there's this story about a frog in boiling water...

Feb 12, 2011

I will spare you the story since I hope most people know it by now. Actually, let me get a few things clear, up front. I don't think ColdFusion is somehow doom or dead or the sky is falling. I know people want to directly accuse me of FUD right off the bat these days, when I voice my concerns. As long as there is an active community, I think ColdFusion has a future.

Another point, I wish to make early on, is that, the really sad part of all of this, is that Adam will not get the chance to have CFX to be his baby from start to finish. I suspect most of us were hoping that would be the case, but unfortunately Adobe felt otherwise. I didn't always agree with him, but I felt it was important that Adam have a complete shot with CFX. I truly wish Adam and Alison the best.

So now back to the frog story.


This post is in response to Adam Lehman recent post on the change in management for the ColdFusion projects at Adobe. http://www.adrocknaphobia.com/post.cfm/the-modern-age-of-coldfusion

Since the Macromedia/Adobe merger there has been a clear line from senior Adobe management to move all the ColdFusion operations over to India (They've tried also with Flex before but many fought back on that but they may be doing it again now). This hasn't happen directly of course, because of the fear of losing critical clients, so they went about this slowly and piecemeal.

The problems in going offshore have been numerous and yet we've dealt with it in large part because things were done slowly (like the frog in boiling water) and because we had Adobe people in the states managing things. You could call on Adam if something got really screwed up. In many ways, it didn't feel different from when the engineering was in the states. You could call on Tim and he looked into it.

 But as we all know, the offshore thing hasn't been pretty. These are just some of the problems we have all experienced..

- a rise in serious bugs and security flaws like the FCKeditor hack
- slower response times to those bugs and flaws fixed (it takes a full day for the staff in India to even see the problem)
- increasingly complex patches and updates. Patches used to be a simple dropping of a jar file. Now when a patch comes out, people spend days having to manually patch all their CF servers.
- odd language additions - cfscript has plenty of odd things now because the staff in India is inexperience in language development.

These problems have only increased. Thankfully, with Adam and Jason before him, we had management states side to call on and help get the matter fixed. Many people may not know this, but they have both played the Winston Wolf on more than one occasion.  So, who are you going to call on now? When another FCKeditor type bug hits, and it will it's only a matter of time, do you think Adobe is going to move any faster now that most everything including senior project leadership is in India?

Also keep in mind, the 'plan' for CFX is now also off the table. Anything Adam was planning with CFX can now be voided from the new management. That's partly the reason they probably agree to everything to begin with. Don't be left to expect the new management will not make any changes. Adobe has never operated that way.

There will also be more of a disconnect between the core ColdFusion community and users (which are mostly North Americans) and the staff managing and producing CF. Simple changes and requests will take even longer or may not happen at all now. This change will have profound impacts from this point forward, and let me be clear, Adobe once they do this, it's not going to get fixed. So if you have any concerns about this move, you really need to voice them now before it's too late.

When I first tweeted my concerns (I know, bad move), I had several ACPs (Adobe Community Professionals) completely jump on my case. I think many things are being mixed up at that point in the tweets going back and forth.

So let me be clear, I respect many individuals in the ACP program and regardless of how things go, I always will. But I do consider the program, as a whole, is effectively defunct now and without purpose. Adobe isn't treating them as community leaders, or a group of advisors or professionals at all, more like a cheerleading group or fanboy club. From my sources, not one ColdFusion ACP was consulted or even alerted to this the biggest change in the ColdFusion project since Adobe took it over. They weren't ask to voice an opinion or to provide any feedback. I suspect that was the case from other critical decisions as well over the years. In many respects, Adobe hopes they will just tow the line - "Long live ColdFusion", etc., etc. If that's the case, then what is the point of the program?

I mention in my tweet that ACPs have a decision to make, even if it means risking their ACP status. If you have any  concerns about this recent Adobe decision, you need to voice them now - loud and clear. You are community leaders first and foremost. If the program is to have any legitimacy, it needs to provide a voice of leadership that Adobe is willing to hear.

I don't expect all is lost, but I do think it's time that the ColdFusion community finally voice their opinion and have their voice felt. This has gone on long enough now. ColdFusion is bigger than Adobe and it has a future, it only needs leadership. I call on everyone to voice your opinion on this.

So I will start this off, I have just a few points that I believe most in the community will agree with and support. It is my sincere hope that senior Adobe management will reflect on their decision and reconsider the path they are taking. This is for the good of Adobe and ColdFusion as an Adobe product.

The points I wish that everyone can agree with are as follows:

1. The Adobe ColdFusion project management should be based in North America and have a long history in using the products. This provides the critical link between the customers who use ColdFusion and the engineering staff.

2. The trouble ticket system needs to be finally addressed. It needs to be switched to JIRA and properly monitored. We don't need a repeat of the FCKEditor mess and its aftermath.

3. The ColdFusion ACPs should be treated as a group of caretakers for Coldfusion and consulted in any major changes in the server or builder. These are many of your core customers actually, you should already be doing this. Plus, they should be completely free to voice their opinions.

4. A language committee needs to be set up to properly evolve the CFML language. These people don't have to be from the competing CFML engines, but they should be experienced in computer language development. Some ACPs may qualify for this, but there are many people in academia, etc. that can be called on to help.

If you agree with these principles please mark your approval in the comments. These aren't anti-Adobe or anti-ColdFusion sentiments, I truly believe these steps will ensure the growth and strength of the technology. If you disagree, I'm completely open to other opinions as well. The primary concern I have, is we'll be like the frog in boiling water and do nothing.

Comments

Russ Johnson

Russ Johnson wrote on 02/12/11 2:20 AM

Great read John. I dont think I would classify that as FUD at all. You raise some very valid concerns in my opinion. Basically when Cutter and I were talking earlier today, most of your concerns are things that I raised to him. Adam has been that link between us and Adobe and I feel like we as a community have grown over the last year specifically due to his actions.

I do disagree on your viewpoint of the ACP's. Im in my second year of the program and not once have I ever gotten the feeling that I couldnt "speak my mind" when it comes to Adobe products or procedures. Just the opposite in some cases. I can recall several times that Adam has asked our opinion on something and encouraged honesty.

Im a bit confused by the whole Friday night posting myself. This seems like such a huge change that it should have been handled a bit differently in my opinion.

Im still not 100% sure how I feel about all this yet and Im sure it may take a few weeks for it all to hit home but at this point I do have reservations and mixed feelings about it. I can only hope that Adobe will address the concerns we all have sometime in the future.

My biggest fear I believe is losing the "accessibility" we have to Adam now. I just dont see how we will have that level of accessibility and communication with an all over-seas team.
Big Mad Kev

Big Mad Kev wrote on 02/12/11 7:23 AM

The three of your four points you had imho have been answered in Adams Post:

1)The rest of support team sales / evangelists are still there.
2)I can't comment
3)/4) There is now as mentioned a ColdFusion Customer Advisory Board of which ACP/ACC/Large Clients plus a few others inc Directors and engineering team.

Be rest assured with you get jumped on my my fellow ACP's shows the passion. I think Seans posting suns it up, we've had many Product Mangers over the years and CF has got bigger and better.

The team in India can only get better having the PM & PMM in the same office & timezone.

A large company like Adobe have to have things signed off and once it's signed up for it's hard to turn back.

There is no FUD need CFX will be the best release since CF MX 6.1
Adam Lehman (Adobe)

Adam Lehman (Adobe) wrote on 02/12/11 10:09 AM

John,

To quote Scott Pilgrim, "You're pretentious, this blog sucks, I have beef."

Adobe doesn't offshore _anything_ to India. Adobe is a worldwide company with multiple headquarters in India. We don't outsource. We don't staff the office with contractors. We are not living in an NBC sitcom. The multiple product teams in the Bangalore office (including the Flash Builder team) are some of the most talented engineers I've ever know. Stateside or otherwise. If it somehow hurts your national pride that the best people to build ColdFusion are not in the US. Good. It should. Because it's the truth.

I think your constant attacks on the ACPs are way over the line. They are indeed the caretakers of ColdFusion. In no way have they ever been asked to mask their true opinions. The only thing I've done to motive the opinions and comments of the ACPs is to be open and honest with them about ColdFusion and Adobe.

You are wrong. You are on the outside looking in with little to no insight on what's really going on. You can take these incidental issues (like FCK) and pile them up... but at the end of the day, you've got a molehill, not a mountain.

I can't wait for the ColdFusion team to prove you wrong!
Scott Stroz

Scott Stroz wrote on 02/12/11 10:31 AM

John,

You sure are making a lot of assumptions with how things will mover forward. Unless you actually work for Adobe and have 'insider information' your accusations are, in my opinion, bordering on FUD.

I also take offense to your implication that if, as an ACP, I do not speak out against this recent news, that I am a sheep who is just 'towing the company'. I have been an ACP for several years and I never been made to feel like I could not or should not voice my opinion.

I also never recall that Adobe ever said that they would consult ACPs on product changes such as this...that was never part of the deal, and to think it should be is just ludicrous.

I plan on blogging my thoughts about this news, but I am going to wait a few days so that I know my feelings are not a 'knee jerk' reaction. I need some time to digest the information and really think about how it will affect me and the ColdFusion community.
Raymond Camden

Raymond Camden wrote on 02/12/11 10:47 AM

I'll just ditto Scott here. I can't speak for anyone else who accused you last night but I can say that for myself I didn't appreciate the insinuation that as an ACP I'd simply roll over and take this news w/o comment. ACPs have a voice. As much as I love ColdFusion there are certainly things that bug me and trust me Adam hears it when I have a complaint. We aren't quiet - either on the private lists or on the public.

You are welcome to have your opinion about this change. I don't agree with it. What I take issue with - and what I think others are taking issue with - is your feeling that we ACPs somehow can't speak our own mind about this. Now for some specific feedback:

"a rise in serious bugs and security flaws like the FCKeditor hack"

CF is a complex product. I'd expect more bugs as it gets bigger. Is CF getting "buggier"? I'd dispute that. Is the FCKEditor issue even Adobe's fault? Wasn't the bug in the 3rd party code?

"- slower response times to those bugs and flaws fixed (it takes a full day for the staff in India to even see the problem)"

A full day. Wow. I guess you see faster turnaround at Microsoft, Apple, Oracle, etc? I've seen Adobe have -very- quick turn around on security issues. This isn't a 10 person company giving away free open source stuff they don't have to stand behind. This is an enterprise level company which means things have to be a bit more slow/thought out/etc. In an ideal world a guy would find a bug at 8AM and you would have a fix by 8:30AM. That's never going to happen.

"- increasingly complex patches and updates. Patches used to be a simple dropping of a jar file. Now when a patch comes out, people spend days having to manually patch all their CF servers."

I just went through this. Took me 20 minutes for one box. My next box will be quicker. For a majority of CF users out there this will be a quick process. For enterprise customers with lots of boxes, yes, it will take longer, but most likely they have a much larger team. But on a per box basis this last update was a 20 minute patch.
"Days" is simply not accurate.

"- odd language additions - cfscript has plenty of odd things now because the staff in India is inexperience in language development."

Wow, maybe you aren't using the same product I am? cfscript is not perfect. You can't do cfsetting for example. But the recent updates in 901 has allowed me to use script for 100% of my model and has dramatically improved my development. To say the India staff are inexperienced is a slap in the face of the work they've done. They are hard working, incredibly intelligent developers and deserve a lot more respect then you've given them. Is ColdFusion perfect? Nope. Do you know of an Enterpise-level product out there that is? If so -let me know please.
Jason Dean

Jason Dean wrote on 02/12/11 11:14 AM

You are stating a lot of things as fact, yet none have come to pass.

X will happen

There will be X

Sorry pal, but unless you are the all-seeing oracle you don't know what will happen and you are indeed spreading FUD. It's not bordering on FUD, it is FUD.

You've been spewing Anti-Adobe sentiments for a while. And now you are spewing Anti-ACP sentiments. Yesterday you accused me of being mean. What are you doing? Defunct? Without purpose? Eat me.

If I felt like what I was doing had no purpose, I wouldn't do it. Why would I?

I do not agree with your assessment. I think you are completely off. Am I towing the company line now? Oh no! I am so worried about losing my ACP status that I won't speak out. I must be a sheep.

I am not worried about losing my ACP status. I've seen ACPs do a lot worse than speak their minds about something like this and not lose their status. We've NEVER been told to censor ourselves. Who told you we were? Or are you making more grand assumptions.

ACPs are more involved in the future of ColdFusion than they ever have been. Adobe is dedicated to making ColdFusion an even beter product and they have asked us to help. They have even reached beyond ACPs and gotten some of ColdFusion's largest stakeholders involved.

What the hell do you know about any of this anyway? You claim to have "sources", yet you get so much wrong. Sorry pal, but you're in no position to predict much accurately. You are free to have your opinions, certainly, just as I am free to tell you that they're wrong.

If you want to know more about what is going on, you should get more involved with the community. We haven't heard much from you in a long time (except of course for the occasional dig at Adobe). Come on back. We'll get you up to speed.
charlie arehart

charlie arehart wrote on 02/12/11 12:45 PM

Wow, John, I'm stunned. I know you well, and I know you've had beefs with Adobe, but this really is over the top. It's like the situation with some others in the community, where you know them personally, yet you read what they write, and you wonder, "is this the same person I know?"--and you're not surprised then when people jump on them.

I won't elaborate or repeat the points made so far to contend with your observations. I agree with them all. I know that will put me the fanboy club, but really I would like to think I say this with as much objectivity as you're claiming.

I honestly don't know where many of these assertions are coming from. And so that it's clear, since I am a panelist along with Josh Adams of Adobe, and others, on John's riapodcast.com, I am not one of the "sources" to what John has alluded. That's another part of why I'm writing here.

I don't think the ACP program is "defunct". I don't think the move of these two roles to India is such horrible news. I don't agree at all that "the offshore thing hasn't been pretty" to this point.

And I really don't think that Adobe had any responsibility to "consult" with us ACPs on this, which is clearly a business move entirely in their prerogative to make. (And they did "alert" us to the news early yesterday before going public, with a helpful extended connect session with lots of back and forth. I'm hoping admitting that "talking about fight club" in this instance is ok'ed, to clear that mistaken accusation.)

Most important, I don't think CF is in some death spiral. As I said on Adam's blog entry, I'm confident that he's laid a blueprint that is looking good for the future, and I'm also confident in the CF team that remains.

These are all just opinions, of course, mine and yours. Reasonable people can differ. And I'm sure we'll discuss all this on some upcoming episode of the podcast. :-) And some may wonder why Josh and I would be associated with a podcast with someone who's so hostile toward Adobe. But John's not typically vented this way there.

But maybe you're feeling that this is a time to drop the kid gloves about how you feel on all this. I guess we'll see on the next podcast. :-) But just so there's no "guilt by association", I wanted to speak out here (and perhaps for Josh) to say that I don't feel as John does. He's a man and can and will speak for himself, though.

And though he can certainly defend himself, I do want to say that I know him to otherwise be a valuable contributor to the community, on so many levels, which is why I opened with my point about how some people can just come off differently when writing. I hope everyone will take a breath, on both sides, of this and the broader issue.

More than anything, I hope that time will show that these early posturings are just over-reaction to the news, and that the CF ship will continue to sail, whatever tempests and waters it may encounter, for a good long while.

I say this as someone who has been through these waters before, about 14 years ago. I'd spent 15 years then in a certain mainframe community (an enterprise database with amazing abilities for its time), and we started hearing the same rumblings about its impending doom with the move to PCs, the web, etc, and that's indeed when I myself jumped ship. I landed right in CF, and am very happy for that of course. But imagine my amazement to find that that mainframe product is still in use all these years later, with a community of people that I still keep in touch with. I say all that just to convey that we could look back on this with a very different perspective than John is painting.

Again, reasonable people can and will differ, about politics, economics, religion, and so on. What we can know is that the truth will out. I'm ok with waiting to see.
John Mason

John Mason wrote on 02/12/11 2:53 PM

I think Charlie and Josh may feel concerned since they host the RIApodcast with me that people would think "my sources" were them. I know a lot of people in the CF community and Josh and Charlie aren't connected to this in any way.

I think my statement that the ACPs have a decision to make is getting bent out of wrack. If you feel no pressure from Adobe, then that's great, but let's stay on focus to the real concern I'm pointing out here.

So, none of you have any concerns or reservations about this latest change? At all? Really? So there are no tradeoffs and everything will just run perfectly? There's no reason to be alarmed?

This is a pretty big change (probably the biggest in the last few years) and I feel there will be very real drawbacks from it. I'm sorry to voice my concerns, but I think it's important thing to do at this time.
Scott Stroz

Scott Stroz wrote on 02/12/11 3:15 PM

To me, concerns are no more, no less than when Jason took the reigns from Tim or when Adam took the reigns from Jason, or when Adobe acquired Macromedia - I think the Adobe acquisition of Macromedia was a bigger threat to CF than this latest move.

In my opinion, in each of these instances, ColdFusion, and the ColdFusion community, not only made it through, but came out better and stronger than it was before.

After re-reading your post a few time now, I need to correct a previous statement, I no longer think your comments are bordering on FUD, I think they are most definitely FUD.

You have made predictions, claiming them to be fact, on how things will unfold for ColdFusion, you have slammed the engineering team in India (who, BTW, are responsible fot the last 2 full versions of CF) and made claims about Adobe management agreeing to everything Adam presented only so they can cut things later, that would make the most ardent conspiracy theorist turn green with envy - I fear your tin foil hat be on on just a little too tight.
John Mason

John Mason wrote on 02/12/11 3:33 PM

At the heart of this is the future of ColdFusion. It's pretty hard to talk about the future without...well talking about the future :)

These are my concerns based on the recent past which are factual. Yes, I have made predictions about the future, but to completely disregard them as FUD because we speak of the future seems overly critical.

There has been real trade offs since Adobe took this over and manage them in the way they have. The community has not grown since the dot com heyday and in many ways has split into multiple little groups over the last few years. CFDJ is gone. Fusion Authority is gone and CFUnited is gone. These are are facts. To say things have come out better and stronger seems a weird twist of the history.
Tim Cunningham

Tim Cunningham wrote on 02/12/11 4:15 PM

John,

Thanks, for blogging your thoughts. I really wanted to see them in full paragraphs, rather than spread out across 140 character messages on twitter. Twitter it is easy to misunderstand the point trying to be made on topics as broad as this. I have made my thoughts known on my blog about the news Adam announced: http://ow.ly/3VhDx Now that you have fully laid out your thoughts, I would like to tell you what I think of them.
I can’t tell you your fears are wrong, nor can you tell me my trust is placed, that would be a pointless argument to have. So rather I would like to give you my opinion on what this blog post “seems” to reveal about you.
1.   You are passionate about ColdFusion.

2.   You have great ideas about how to improve ColdFusion, but these differ from the Adobe implementation.

3.   You think CF is currently in “Hot Water” and it is going to get “Hotter”

4.   You seem to distrust Adobe upper management.

5.   You can across as xenophobic in this post.

6.    You seem to have an axe to grind with the ACPs.

RE:#3 Your post starts with the story of the frog in hot water. Great story, I use it in public speaking often. But it reveals what you believe the current state of ColdFusion is: “In hot water.” I don’t know why you think that, I think it is a fantastic product, and it makes my company at its 80+ developers lots and lots of money. If you believe we are already in the cooking pot, then naturally things are going to get hotter. I don’t believe that. My experience with ColdFusion during the Allaire, Macromedia and Adobe days has been sunny. My experience with the CF community, since I decided to stop being a lurker, has be overwhelmingly positive.

RE:#4 Your distrust of Adobe Management is very apparent in this comment: “Also keep in mind, the 'plan' for CFX is now also off the table. Anything Adam was planning with CFX can now be voided from the new management. That's partly the reason they probably agree to everything to begin with.”
Wow, you seem to paint Adobe upper management as some mustachioed cartoon villain, sending Adam all around the world collecting ideas for product improvement , then at the last minute crushing all his hopes and dreams and giving him a lump of coal for Christmas, all the while laughing and sipping brandy. So Adam says upper management signed off on the plan and you say the “plan is off the table” I am going with Adam on this one. I don’t think upper management just wants to play games, they could have just said no and that would be the end of it. Also you imply that they knowingly lied to Adam by agreeing to everything to appease him. When really their end game was is to move it to India. Also if upper management wanted to do that, they would just do it. They would not “game” their underlings – what would be the point?

RE:#5 I doubt you are xenophobic, but you should know that is how came off to me. Your calls that CF should be managed in North America and complaints about lack of quality are a slap in the face to the hard working people in the Global group of Adobe. You know what I think the best thing that could happen to CF? That it would become HUGE in China and Asia. With that growing market it would make ColdFusion a huge money maker. Growth in North America is not going to increase dramatically. New markets are in Asia. Guess where the Product and Marketing team are going to be: in Asia. Your fears about decrease in support times, I really can’t speak to. Why not? Because my company has never, not once, needed to call Allaire, Macromedia or Adobe support. I have had to call Microsoft support. I have had to call Oracle support. I have had to call Apple support. The experience was painful. Any issue I have had with ColdFusion usually was a mistake on my part or something that could be worked around, usually with the free guidance of an Adobe Community Professional. Which leads me to. . .

RE:#6 I could understand why someone would be concerned about a change like this. Concern is natural. But how you made the leap from this announcement to the ACP program is defunct makes me question if you didn’t already have some already existing beef with the ACP program. If Adobe support did get worse, the ACP program would be MORE needed. As it stands it is the only support I have ever known or needed to know. I am not an ACP. You seem to be goading the ACP’s to speak out, they have, they don’t seem to agree with your fears. Doesn’t make either one of you right or wrong, but our responses show where our confidence lies.

I truly hope that the release of X will be great. I also hope that any apparent delay or slight snafu in the process is not going to make you, jump up and down and say “I was right!” At the end of it all, this is a tool that we use, to make our livelihood. It is a damn good one.
Liz Frederick

Liz Frederick wrote on 02/12/11 4:16 PM

John, the community feels positive about these changes. Of course there was a lot of shock but no one left Friday's meeting scared or abandoned.

ACPs contribute content to various resources to help people and earned their recognition that way. When did I ever say I needed them to be cheerleaders? This isn't a game. The ACPs help Adobe see all sides and we reward them with an avenue to communicate their thoughts and collaborate with other credible individuals. Did you realize that ACPs are not just about one product?

Lastly, the ACPs/ACCs have me and I will back them up indefinitely. CFUnited may be gone but its core purpose of bringing community together lives on through me and now it has a bigger force... my team, Adobe, ACPs, ACCS, new event organizers, user groups, and developers worldwide.

Not everything keeps staying the exact same way forever. They get better when someone actually decides to embrace change and support others... just like ACPs.

I fully support and commend Alison and Adam for how they are handling the transition. Real professionals.
phill.nacelli

phill.nacelli wrote on 02/12/11 5:48 PM

John,

I have seen you go on a bashfest towards Adobe and have never said anything, you have the right to your opinion and I respect it and you. However, when you use statements like "These are my concerns based on the recent past which are factual." without facts and make them based on opinion you lose credibility, kinda like "Fair and Balanced".

"There has been real trade offs since Adobe took this over and manage them in the way they have."

Yes, maybe there have been some trade offs, but I have yet to see how negative ones have exceeded all the great things we all got out of the deal! Under Adobe, ColdFusion's new features and syntax has improved how we do our work. Access to public betas has given folks the chance to help shape and plan future versions. Yes there are some quirks. But we have the proper forum to address them, and I have been very pleased with the response I got back from Adobe Engineering (here and in India!). I may not have always gotten the answer I wanted, but it's always been addressed in a timely and professional manner.

"The community has not grown since the dot com heyday and in many ways has split into multiple little groups over the last few years."

It's 2011! To compare any technology related community participation nowadays to the dot com era is like comparing our current economy to well.. the dot com era! As for my personal experience ever since Sandra Clark and I have started the Capital Area ColdFusion User Group we have been extremely pleased with the turn out (even in December!) and we have pretty much the entire 2011 scheduled filled with speakers! The split I believe has been mostly about ideology in frameworks and only recently the issue of open source seems to be coming up, but yet folks still are part of the same community and attend the same events and online forums.

"CFDJ is gone. Fusion Authority is gone and CFUnited is gone."

Not sure if you realize that CFDJ's demise was due to Sys-con's poor relationship building skills with its authors, along with the fact that the entire print media industry is facing difficulties, this is not in any way related to the ColdFusion community or any management changes at Adobe. Fusion Authority and again, any print media will not do well since most folks no longer subscribe to magazines to get their technical content, only technical print magazines I read are the ones I get complimentary due to me being employed in the IT industry. And CFUnited... well... not sure if you realize this but the economy and conference landscape has changed.. not just in our industry but many others. The old days of large and long conferences are long gone, companies just don't have the budget to send people (costs are not just airfare, registration and hotel but lost labor), even that I know many folks who still attempt to attend them at their own cost. Instead of CFUnited we have many other options that are smaller and more localized and yet still with the same great content.

"These are are facts."

These are the real facts!

Phill Nacelli
Adobe Community Sheep.. I meant Proud Champion!
Scott Stroz

Scott Stroz wrote on 02/12/11 6:42 PM

'Yes, I have made predictions about the future, but to completely disregard them as FUD because we speak of the future seems overly critical.'

And I feel your 'predictions' are overly critical.
Scott Stroz

Scott Stroz wrote on 02/12/11 6:52 PM

'These are are facts. To say things have come out better and stronger seems a weird twist of the history.'

You are right, those are facts. But none of those facts really has anything to do with the current discussion.

I did nto say 'things' came out better and stronger, I said ColdFusion and the ColdFusion community has. ColdFusion is a far better product now than it was during the 'dot com heyday' and the ColdFusion community is larger and more far reaching since then. So, yes, its pretty obvious, to me, that ColdFusion and the ColdFusion community are stronger.

Your accusations against Adobe management seem borderline paranoid. I am not sure what your main motivator is, but it seems to me that you have some beef with Adobe, and are using this change in the ColdFusion team to try and push an agenda.
John Mason

John Mason wrote on 02/13/11 8:27 AM

@Tim - I guess xenophobia would be the next thing I would need to defend against. The problem lies in the geographic distance not the nationality. Please refer to Brian Meloche's post. He also makes many of the same points. I think the ACPs have to carefully look at this and not rush to judgement that it's somehow a great thing. There is history to Adobe management and they have a long line of technologies and products that they leave to rot. CF may very well be next.

@LIz - Most of the community doesn't even know this has happen yet, thanks mostly to the late friday post. I don't think you or the ACPs speak for the community as a whole. You are a part of the community. You mention you were shocked by the news, but of what exactly. Honestly, if it's this great thing, what was there to be shocked about.

@Phil - The growth has not happen from any period of time over the past 10 years. The numbers that Adobe were throwing about a couple years ago were a fabrication at best. Points, that even they seem to be backing away from now. I point things out not for what specifically took them down but the fact that there's not enough of a community left to support any new form of them - no developers' journal or major flagship conference. There are plenty of large conferences in other technologies, this particular problem seems to be CF related.

@et al - In reference to Phil's sheep statement, also, keep in mind, I never once called anyone a "sheep". Jason Dean decided to jump to a conclusion that was never there to begin with. If I'm to defend myself, let us start with what I actually say.

@Scott - Everything has consequences. To say otherwise seems rather odd to me, and to say the community is larger is completely wrong, it's rather sad you guys don't see that. My motivation is to not see any more damage being done. It's truly sad that some of you don't see the same problems here. I'm afraid by the time you guys figure it out it may be too late.
RogerTheGeek

RogerTheGeek wrote on 02/13/11 9:59 AM

A lot of the angst could have been avoided if Adobe had much of a marketing and PR group. Announcements like Adam's should have been handled differently with a lot of exposure for the "new" management. It should not have been announced by outgoing staff.

The new management needs to step up the PR. It says volumes that they left it to Adam to explain the changes in staff. This is not the way that high performing management acts. At my employer, the CEO or executive level members make big announcements. There is silence from Adobe management about this AFAIK.
Scott Stroz

Scott Stroz wrote on 02/13/11 10:00 AM

'I think the ACPs have to carefully look at this and not rush to judgement that it's somehow a great thing.'

And I think everyone has to carefully look at this and not rush to judgement that it's somehow a bad thing. Honestly, John, I am a bit disappointed in your reaction to this. I had pegged you as a much more level headed person.

I am not sure where you got that I said there were no consequences. I understand there are always consequence, but, unlike you, in this case,I don't see them all as negative consequences.

As for the 'sheep' comment, while you may not have used that exact phrase, that was certainly the underlying tone of your tweets. Whatever your beef is with Adobe, it is obviously limiting your ability to look at this situation objectively.
Scott Stroz

Scott Stroz wrote on 02/13/11 10:07 AM

@Roger - and if it was handled the way you suggest, there would be people who will complain that we should have heard the news from Adam and/or Allison.
Aaron Cox

Aaron Cox wrote on 02/14/11 12:20 PM

@Adam

"the best people to build ColdFusion are not in the US. Good. It should. Because it's the truth."

Even if it is true, that statement is at best rude and childish. Come on.

It seems like a lot of people at every end of the spectrum were full-blown kneejerk at the announcement. I found it quite odd myself that Adobe made this move in such a manner. I ditto Roger's remarks here.

ColdFusion isn't going to die tomorrow because of these changes, but they are a bit abrupt to say the least. A lot of livelihoods are at stake so I understand taking this sort of news seriously, but let's all be rational here.
John Coffee

John Coffee wrote on 02/14/11 12:30 PM

Ah guys, there is a real national security problem here. ColdFusion is an application server that is heavily used by our government that is completely made, controlled and now directly managed by a group of foreign nationals.
Scott Stroz

Scott Stroz wrote on 02/14/11 12:34 PM

Yay!!!!

More FUD!!!
Scott Stroz

Scott Stroz wrote on 02/14/11 12:38 PM

@John Coffee,

At what point did Adobe become 'foreign nationals'? last I heard, they were still a US company.
phill.nacelli

phill.nacelli wrote on 02/14/11 12:57 PM

@JohnCoffee

"there is a real national security problem here"

I don't know if you already know this but previous versions of ColdFusion has already been developed in India! Just like Oracle's products and other large enterprise systems used everyday in Federal, State and local Government. I don't think a logistical management move by Adobe would introduce any new "national security problems here". I know Adam is a very capable and smart guy, but I seriously doubt his job was reviewing code for any threats!
Guust Nieuwenhuis

Guust Nieuwenhuis wrote on 02/14/11 1:21 PM

@JohnCoffee

"Ah guys, there is a real national security problem here. ColdFusion is an application server that is heavily used by our government that is completely made, controlled and now directly managed by a group of foreign nationals."

The European Commission has 750 applications (small ones and big ones) running on ColdFusion. I think you are the only one that sees software developed by "foreign nationals" as a problem!
Sean Harrison

Sean Harrison wrote on 02/14/11 1:32 PM

I think I chime in and say something once every ten years or so; looks like it's time. Nicely explained, John. I've never been a fan of outsourcing, but fiscal realities exist whether we support them or not; I agree with your points completely, but I imagine the decision making process at Adobe at this point is driven by the bean counters more than the people in charge of holding CF development to the highest standards. Adobe's overall standard of what constitutes 'good enough' has slipped over the last few years, IMHO, and CF is just one of the casualties. Our community is big enough to be heard at Adobe; corporations, though, are much more prone to listen to 'here's what you can do instead', as opposed to 'hey, don't do that'.

Perhaps the active development community can offer Adobe some different perspective as to what alternatives might exist, if we can grok their reasons for making the move.
Scott Stroz

Scott Stroz wrote on 02/14/11 1:40 PM

I think I use a slightly different definition of 'outsourcing'.

To me, 'outsourcing' is when you hire or contract with an outside company, typically in a different country, to take perform certain actions for your company - such as writing software or providing customer support.

However, the ColdFusion engineering team in India do not work for an outside company, they work for Adobe. So, I am not sure if it really fits into 'outsourcing' category.

I am curious, would the 'outsourcing' be an issue if the engineering team resided in, say, Ireland or any country not named 'India'?
John Mason

John Mason wrote on 02/14/11 1:41 PM

@Scott - is every dissenting opinion going to be FUD? It is interesting at how aggressive people are getting to try an shoot down the concerns here without a moment's thought. People were saying Adobe is an international company, now when it suits better a US company? Which is it? It is headquarters in the US, but there's now almost complete production and oversight going on in India for CF. I agree, the top management now in the US isn't going to verify anything in the code, which is concerning.

@Phil - Oracle has offices in India but they still do a lot of work here in the US and I don't think they have completely moved management over to India like Adobe has with CF. It also has to be said that because another company does it, doesn't invalidate the point.

@Guust - Just because the Europeans do it, also doesn't invalidate the point Coffee made here.
Derrick Peavy

Derrick Peavy wrote on 02/14/11 1:52 PM

Problem - CF is still seen as a 20th century thing. 1) Make it free and open like Railo. 2) Develop a multi-homing Apache plug in module a-la Bleu Dragon. 3) Have the module included in Apache releases, and the stack included in Ubuntu and other *nix distro's. This makes ALL - ALL - ALL of the BS FUD arguments null and void from the a-holes in the open source community. It lowers cost, increases support, speeds features. And, it makes my apps portable across platforms and hosters. If Adobe wants money from it they can sell development tools and software.
Nic Tunney

Nic Tunney wrote on 02/14/11 1:59 PM

John,

If you think ACPs don't speak their mind, you've never read any posts on the ACP list ;) Some of the loudest, most passionate people I've ever met.

I'm not quite sure what you are driving at with any of this. I'm not saddened by the fact that CF has a new product manager, other than my initial knee-jerk 'There is no way someone else could love CF like Adam' position. It's simply not true. We've been through this a few times now, with a few different parent organizations. The truth of the matter is, for ColdFusion to succeed with the path Adam and Alison have laid out, it needed a substantial effort which was only available under a different business unit. From way back when I was Team Macromedia for ColdFusion in the early millenium, I've seen the players (now ACPs) go from a whining bunch of passionate, but disjointed people to a group of developers who really have Adobe's ear. This should be obvious from the last few versions of CF. Don't belittle the efforts of the ACPs as well as the community at large with your ranting.
Raymond Camden

Raymond Camden wrote on 02/14/11 2:02 PM

So you are only 21st century if you give away open source software? That is ludicrous. I love open source. I love free stuff. But to equate paying for software with being out dates simply makes no sense and speaks to a lack of understanding of the modern world. You say "if Adobe wants money" as if it was some bad thing. I want money too! I've got a wife, 3 kids, and a mortgage. Adobe has a heck of a lot more mouths to feed and they should not be faulted for charging $$ for a product. I've earned many, many, _many_ times over the cost of ColdFusion in my life time. Heck, Adobe should probably raise the cost of ColdFusion.
John Mason

John Mason wrote on 02/14/11 2:13 PM

Let's not get derailed by another open v closed argument. Derrick there are open source cfml engines: Railo and OpenBD. I don't think Adobe CF has to be open sourced.

Let us stay on topic as best we can,
Unknown

Unknown wrote on 02/15/11 5:39 PM

Given the way that people have attacked Russ and John for their opinions, I will remain anonymous. I can't speak to some of the concerns John has. Some of it seems emotional. So was Adam's completely unprofessional comment to Russ on a mailing list. Ironically enough, Adam's comment seems to validate John's criticism (which btw, didn't seem harsh AT ALL).

In any event, I find it odd that Americans aren't saddened that yet another higher-level tech job is being moved overseas. I appreciate the immense effort the overseas call center agents endure just to hold a conversation. I studied a foreign language for 6 years through HS and college. It's one thing to read it... it's another to understand spoken word. However, the experience has diminished when Americans call foreign call centers. We deal with complicated problems and often need quick solutions. Someone like Adam provides a good interface or a quick answer.

The recent turnover in this position (2 guys in 2 years?), plus community turmoil, and relatively-low job opportunities causes enough stress for me to lose sleep over. At the same time, we're encouraged to keep drinking the Koolaid and wait for some "exciting new features" which may or may not be the next Flash forms.

And for the fanboys who like repeating the same thing over and over again... Most of us are vested in CFML and can't leave on a whim. Who's going to hire a CFML developer for a .NET job when there are 20 other unemployed .NET developers scratching and pawing?
Raymond Camden

Raymond Camden wrote on 02/15/11 5:47 PM

I'm not sure why I'm bothering to respond to @Unknown. I mean - if you can't stand behind your words, why did you bother posting? I'm not going to attack you. I'm going to disagree with you. There is a _huge_ difference in that. I think John is wrong. Very wrong. If that's an attack... well... I'm sure by now John has grown a pretty thick skin. ;)

So you seriously think the new feature may be Flash Forms? So out of all the things CF has added the past few years, you want to focus on Flash Forms? Flash Forms suck. THey do. But you know what? They were pretty darn cool at first. I'm happy Adobe (Macromedia I believe) took a chance on them. Do you full expect every feature that's added to CF is going to be a home run? I don't. Shoot - I could say the same about cfspreadsheet - a tag I've _never_ needed. What if Adobe adds the next ORM? The next cfimage? Maybe I'm wrong but I think Adobe has _many_ more home runs then strike outs.
Russ Johnson

Russ Johnson wrote on 02/15/11 5:48 PM

" So was Adam's completely unprofessional comment to Russ on a mailing list."

What comment was that? Not sure I read anything that gave me that impression from Adam. I would love to know which list that was and what thread you feel was unprofessional from Adam.

I dont feel like I have been attacked. I merely agreed with some of Johns original concerns. I still have doubts, even if they are unfounded, but its how I feel. Theres nothing that will change that but the future.

There are other concerns John pointed out in his comments above that I dont agree with. Working for a DoD contracting shop, I know there is noway our government customers will be switching from ColdFusion. Its not the engineering aspect that I have concerns about. I think CF9 was the best release ever by a long shot and it was built by the same team. Its the management changes that Im concerned about. Again, just my opinion.
Unknown

Unknown wrote on 02/15/11 6:11 PM

@Ray
My comment about people attacking John and Russ wasn't directed at you. Opposition is healthy. John clearly said he wanted feedback if you didn't agree. I didn't throw mud at any particular person because it's counterproductive. Either you see people beating John up or you don't. If you don't, then perhaps we aren't reading the same information.

As for remaining anonymous... this community is cliquish. I've barely met a few of the people participating in this discussion. I hold no alliances and I'm not here to make friends or enemies. I just wanted to be able to speak candidly without focusing the sh*t storm upon me. The whole "stand behind your name" thing is practical when you've co-authored WACK or are otherwise regarded in the community. Those things qualify your opinion, but that doesn't mean that other people can't have practical and valid opinions.

@Russ J. - I was referring to a different Russ.
Unknown

Unknown wrote on 02/15/11 6:19 PM

RE: New features

@Ray,
I neglected to comment on the "Flash forms" comment. I think you inadvertently made my point. Flash forms seemed shiny and neat. That is... until you really start to use them. I upgraded to CF9 purely because of the ORM. If CFX has a feature as useful (to me) as the ORM was, I'll be satisfied. If they come out with more cfspreadsheet, cflogin and Flash forms, I'll be greatly disappointed. Until Adobe throws us a bone (about 3 weeks), it's just lip service. In fact, we may not get a real idea of CFX until MAX in October.
Scott Stroz

Scott Stroz wrote on 02/15/11 8:15 PM

@Unknown - Sorry, I don't buy your excuse. The mere fact that you have an opinion 'qualifies' it. You need not author a book or speak at conferences or be 'regarded in the community' for your opinion to be 'qualified'.

In my opinion, if you do not have the conviction to stand behind your opinion, maybe you ought not share it at all.
John Mason

John Mason wrote on 02/15/11 8:56 PM

The mailing list that is being referred to may very well be the cf-talk thread.

http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/cf-talk/thread.cfm/threadid:62632
Unknown

Unknown wrote on 02/15/11 9:56 PM

@Scott

Thanks for validating one of my points. You ignored every comment I made pertaining to the discussion and chose to make a personal remark. Some battles aren't worth fighting for. I have no control over Adobe's decision nor would I even be qualified to make it.

PS. For it to be an excuse, I would have had to do something wrong. I haven't. And if I did, I wouldn't owe random people on the Internet an excuse.
Raymond Camden

Raymond Camden wrote on 02/15/11 10:52 PM

@Unknown: I don't understand you. You made the point that CFX may be like Flash Forms. I agreed that Flash Forms wasn't a great feature. We both agreed - it seemed cool at first. But is that the only thing you can think of when it comes to CF?

CF has been around for 9 versions. Are you shocked that there are some features you don't use? I'm not. I fully expect some features just won't appeal to me. I'd expect that in every single platform out there.

Are you shocked that some features ended up as crap? I'm not. Flash Forms was a swing. Even though we may poo poo it now, it WAS liked by some folks and it WAS used - successfully mind you - by some folks. Do we consider it a miss now? Sure. But heck man - we are looking at 10+ years of development and features. Can you show me the platform that does _not_ have mistakes?
Raymond Camden

Raymond Camden wrote on 02/15/11 10:53 PM

John - and feel free to delete this - is there any way you can tone down the complexity of the captcha? Every comment is taking 2-3 tries to get it right. Plus - it tends to uncheck "Remember my info" when I screw up.
Tim Cunningham

Tim Cunningham wrote on 02/15/11 11:04 PM

I am so done with this thread. Nothing productive has come from it. Any further comment is just chumming the waters.
Scott Stroz

Scott Stroz wrote on 02/15/11 11:13 PM

@Unknown - I did not ignore any of your comments. Its just difficult for me to take your comments seriously when you obviously do not feel confident enough to put your name to them.

PS - excuse: 'serve as a reason or cause or justification of'. You were trying to justify why you chose to not put your name to your own comments, hence, you were making an excuse.
John Mason

John Mason wrote on 02/16/11 12:55 AM

@Ray - I'll see what I can do on that. It's always a balancing act with the captcha and comment spam.

@Scott - A lot of people haven't said anything or have not posted their names because of the reaction they see others get when anything is questioned. It's actually part of the reason I put my neck out there to begin with. It's sad, but for many in the community - they have simply given up and others feel it would only draw negative feelings publicly towards them.
Unknown

Unknown wrote on 02/16/11 1:50 AM

@Ray
I guess I'm not making my point clear. Focusing on an example seems to have missed the broader point. If you read my comment above, I said that the sentiment of "just wait guys, it's gonna be great" is [in different words] par for the course for any enterprise promoting a product. It's just lip service until the details are revealed. What if they are talking about a feature _such as_ Flash forms which, ended up being a disappointment. It would be bad for the community if CFX is delayed and Adobe fails to deliver on the "just wait, it's going to be great". If they add something huge, like they did with the ORM in CF9, then they fulfilled their promise.

I should also point out, I'm not trying to beat that issue to death. I'm trying to explain my initial comment better.


@Scott
That definition doesn't match Google's. In any event, the last thing I care to debate is the dictionary. *shrug* I can agree to ignore each other, as our last few exchanges have added zero value to this topic.
Scott Stroz

Scott Stroz wrote on 02/16/11 8:03 AM

@John - I do not believe for one second that you posted this entry to speak for those who are afraid to to put their names to their opinions. As I have said numerous times, you started with the 'doom and gloom' within hours of Adam's post going 'live'.

Also, my issue is not with your opinion. My issue is that there is not one positive thing in this entry. Not once do you say anything positive can come out of this change. You speak as if you have seen in a crystal ball how things will unfold from here. All you do is take pot shots at Adobe. You used these changes to try and push some sort of anti-Adobe agenda. And that is why I think its spreading FUD

@unknown - http://www.google.com/search?sourceid=chrome&ie=UTF-8&q=define%3A+excuse third definition
Scott Stroz

Scott Stroz wrote on 02/16/11 8:14 AM

@Unknown - For the last few releases of CF I have had a difficult time getting excited about a lot of the UI stuff as they always seem to disappoint and fall short of bring really useful - Flash Forms probably being the first UI feature I felt that way about.

I hate when people use the term (because I feel it is used all too often) but there are some features being mentioned for CF X that could be 'game changers' and possibly have more of an impact than ORM did in CF9.
John Mason

John Mason wrote on 02/16/11 8:37 AM

@Scott - I'm making a point which in this case is a real concern, so it's going at it from the glass half empty point of view versus the glass half full. I agree the sky isn't falling currently, but that I have concerns and I listed them out. It's sad you question my motives and that I do speak for others. Keep in mine, I am a UGM and own a hosting company. I speak to the average CF developer every day and hear their concerns all the time. I'm sorry we disagree but we do.
Scott Stroz

Scott Stroz wrote on 02/16/11 8:58 AM

@John - I would argue you are looking at if from the 'glass is completely empty' point of view.

The funny thing is, with all the software I use on a regular basis there is only one (2 if you count CF builder) where I actually know (well...knew) the product manager's name. Only one (2 if you count CF Builder) where I know (well...knew) in which country said product manager was based.

I imagine there is software we use every day where the 'engineering' and 'product management' teams are based outside of the US. I also imagine that in the 'communities' that use and support that software, in the overall scheme of things, it does not really matter to the end users so long as, at the end of the day, the software fulfills their needs.

I would also hazard a guess that the 'average ColdFusion developer', who most likely does NOT attend conferences or user groups, could not tell you who the product manager for ColdFusion is/was. I know I could not before I stared attending/speaking at conferences/user groups.
John Mason

John Mason wrote on 02/16/11 9:30 AM

But would you agree that knowing Adam, Jason and Tim was a good thing and provided you an important link to the engineers behind CF. If so, then in many respects, that link will be weaker now with the manager and marketing person being on the other side of the world. Attending less conferences and having less interaction will above average or even average CF developers. That's my main point. Also keep in mind, I'm not arguing a drastic change here. I simply asking for the status quo with some minor adjustments, which I think are more than reasonable.
Raymond Camden

Raymond Camden wrote on 02/16/11 9:32 AM

I didn't know Adam or Jason when they were brought on. And how do you know the new management won't be at as many events as Adam was? Isn't it premature to assume that because they are India they will not be able to make it to the States for events?
John Mason

John Mason wrote on 02/16/11 9:39 AM

Well keep in mind we don't have a flagship conference anymore. cfObjective is still marketing for advance CF people. The trend is more small and regional conferences. I can't imagine Adobe would fly them over for each and every one for those. I also think that not having the interaction at their local user groups is a problem. I think it's more than safe to say, there will be less interaction as opposed to more in this respect and that there will be negatives to this.
Nicholas Tunney

Nicholas Tunney wrote on 02/16/11 9:39 AM

@Ray - I actually doubt you'll see them much unless you are a key customer, or are at MAX. I do think you'll hear from them alot though. I think something to point out here is that we still have Terry, Jason and Ben. The role of product manager was blurred a bit by Adam I think, in a good way, but we have the aforementioned product champions who are more than capable of continuing to push CF into the next decade.
John Mason

John Mason wrote on 02/16/11 9:49 AM

Terry and Ben aren't completely dedicated to CF. It's great that they are a part of the community and all, but they do have other duties at Adobe. Jason? Do you mean Josh? He's really the only sales engineer for CF for the entire North America (the largest CF market). There are a couple of sales guys under him, but they don't know much beyond pricing, etc.

Adobe is not doing much on the marketing side and if they are depending on a volunteer force of ACPs/ACCs, that is a pretty weak marketing strategy imho.
Nicholas Tunney

Nicholas Tunney wrote on 02/16/11 10:08 AM

Yeah, I meant Josh. Been a long day already ;) If the need warranted it, I'm sure Adobe would throw additional people at CF. I've never actually checked to see the amount of CF Tweets and blog posts versus other languages, but I'm sure it is relative to the amount of CF developers out there. If CF X goes as expected I'm sure Adobe will put on a very nice marketing campaign, but I'm not sure what you'd have them do presently. We are all out there daily touting CF. Have you ever requested an SE or evangelist and been turned down? I'm just not sure why moving the product manager is negative. Adam was not a typical product manager, he wanted to evangelize as well. We were all just spoiled. I think many questions will be answered in the near future and really every post on this thread, vitriol or not, is conjecture. Change is scary, even good change. We are all hoping for the best and discussion is healthy. No one can tell you what will happen in the next two years but we've put enough faith into Adobe CF that we have made healthy careers out of it. I'm willing to continue with that level of trust.
Michael Givens

Michael Givens wrote on 02/18/11 5:02 AM

To all of the ColdFusion Community, Engineering Team, ACPs, ACCs, UGMs, after reading the healthy debate (well most of it seemed healthy :-), I just want to say, long live ColdFusion. Now, I do have one question... is it just me or does anyone else miss Tim - especially his acting performances during the conferences? I figured he would be performing on Broadway by now. Have a great weekend everyone. A special shout out to Charlie – hey Charlie.

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